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Timmetie
09-22-2005, 05:18 PM
Yes the Immortals! you read that correctly.

With the current interest on the bank, people can gather money in huge amounts, and then just leave it in the bank.

Imagen i start this game, i never make armies, but i mine 500 jewel's a day and set my mines every 36 hours. I bank it all.

After a few days, my interest rates are surching through the roofs, at this point i start to make armies, and i piss off someone with some seriously big armies, cities and issues. So he decides to destroy my n00b ***.

But...

There'll be nothing to destroy, meanwhile, i can send out army after army, actually i could just write a script to buy an army, and send it to a city every day.

This, Ladies and Gentlemen, Will be the Immortals. And they will anoy the hell out of us. Also the big players now, will become immortals (stanleystanleystanleystanleystanley) and a noob is never going to catch up by actually playing the game, but only by the neurotic tactic i described above.

Ph34R P33p$!

BTW, i think cotton should be worth more

elk-tamer
09-22-2005, 05:24 PM
What if two immortals fight?

Timmetie
09-22-2005, 05:28 PM
The world shudders.

But seriously, ofcourse this will happen, but non-immortals will not be able to join the fight/game ever.
It's like the normal hackers in the matrix, they will allways lose to an agent, they can only stall.


BTW, i think cotton should be worth more.

Lukepuuk
09-22-2005, 06:00 PM
People need something to work hard for.
Interest in the bank is one option.
This way everyone plays its own game.
The smart ones might not be those of war, but those of patience.

Timmetie
09-22-2005, 06:06 PM
I pity the fool who buys armies!


Luuk, ofcourse i agree, it's something you work for, you want it, (actually, you have it), BUT it's not the idea of the game.
I'm just saying this to let the intelectual juices on this forum flow, i dont have a solution, you have to be able to achieve something here, but still give others a chance, and achieve it through playing the game how it was meant (Total warfare, destruction, annihalition and judgement day etc).

birq
09-22-2005, 06:08 PM
I pity the fool who buys armies!


Luuk, ofcourse i agree, it's something you work for, you want it, (actually, you have it), BUT it's not the idea of the game.
I'm just saying this to let the intelectual juices on this forum flow, i dont have a solution, you have to be able to achieve something here, but still give others a chance, and achieve it through playing the game how it was meant (Total warfare, destruction, annihalition and judgement day etc).

But what do you think about the value of cotton?

War_Peace
09-22-2005, 06:12 PM
:lol::rofl: Good one!...

Lukepuuk
09-22-2005, 06:19 PM
Funny thing is that the richest ones in the game are the ones who do the least of fighting.
Maybe the problem solves itself. When you're rich, you don't care about the cities anymore.

War_Peace
09-22-2005, 06:36 PM
By the way, not a "Feature Suggestions" but an "Alliances / Trash Talk" material...

Mickey
09-22-2005, 07:22 PM
No, it's a feature suggestion. But how do we fix it? Put a limit on how much money you can keep in the bank?

Lukepuuk
09-22-2005, 07:47 PM
Not a bad idea. 250.000 as a maximum? After that you can't deposit anything anymore?

War_Peace
09-22-2005, 07:50 PM
Not a bad idea. 250.000 as a maximum? After that you can't deposit anything anymore?

Oh my God!!... You indeed have 250,000 Geos don't you!!? :mad: :rofl:

Timmetie
09-22-2005, 07:51 PM
But what do you think about the value of cotton?

You're right, let me edit that.

Lukepuuk
09-22-2005, 07:52 PM
Oh my God!!... You indeed have 250,000 Geos don't you!!? :mad: :rofl:

LOL i wish
But eventually i do hope to get there once.
But I do think that if you make it any lower then 250.000 the use of working towards something in the future is easily gone. And that would be too bad for a feature as good as this bank.

Timmetie
09-22-2005, 07:53 PM
I pity the fool who buys armies!


Luuk, ofcourse i agree, it's something you work for, you want it, (actually, you have it), BUT it's not the idea of the game.
I'm just saying this to let the intelectual juices on this forum flow, i dont have a solution, you have to be able to achieve something here, but still give others a chance, and achieve it through playing the game how it was meant (Total warfare, destruction, annihalition and judgement day etc).


BTW, i think cotton should be worth more

O darn, i wanted to edit this but i quoted.. so now im editing my quote that was meant as an edit. I think this is because of me stressing about the value of cotton, i think we should raise it.

Lukepuuk
09-22-2005, 07:55 PM
Being rich doesn't mean you're a world leader.
I try to use my armies and money to help some newcomers.

Now in some topic I read something about cotton prices...what do you think Timmetie?

Timmetie
09-22-2005, 07:57 PM
Well i dont think it has a lot off answers, some of the things are already on your to-do list. I'm just stating this so you keep this in mind.

A few things, More income, with more extra income, the relative size of the interest shrinks.
Also, with nu bonusses on defending armies or whatever, Money in the bank is as good as an army, cause you can just lose a city and take it back, same number of armies lost/gained.

BTW, i think cotton should be worth more, i think this will fix part of the problem.

Lukepuuk
09-22-2005, 08:03 PM
A problem is that the game has to stay addictive.
I was always for making it not too difficult for newcomer, but I must say that if there's not that much too work for, eventually for the 'older' players, the game will go boring.
It will feel as if they have worked for nothing all that time.
So maybe a maximum of 250.000 but newcomers do have to work for a place here. I had to do that too when I was a newcomer. Worked my *** off(not literally).
If it is a social game then newcomers depend on making friends in higher places.
Lowering the maximum further means you don't have that much to work for anymore after a while.

Timmetie
09-22-2005, 08:07 PM
oke, so the big player issue doesnt seem to bother you as much, not suprisingly cause you're getting really big.

Have you read my piece about the annoying noob with his huge guerillia army?


BTW, i think cotton should be worth more

Cato
09-22-2005, 09:54 PM
Funny thing is that the richest ones in the game are the ones who do the least of fighting.
Maybe the problem solves itself. When you're rich, you don't care about the cities anymore.

I dont think this is makes much sense, because even if you have tons of geos, score is based on total population, not total assets. So the entire object in the game is to obtain cities, which can only be done through the purchase and usage of troops and armies.

I dont think there is any problem with building assets, and I definitely strongly disagree with the idea of capping bank principle. I know that Mickey has previously said that he wants to stay away from arbitrary artificial limits, and this would be a prime example of one if he were to do it.

War_Peace
09-22-2005, 10:03 PM
Lukepuuk is comfortable in his Greece...

This is not an arbitrary limit. This is a limit to over... no, no... OOOVER progress... Which, can be pretty dangerous in time! Though, that 250,000 Geos will still get interest... Oh, my head hurts!... :spin: :lol:

Lukepuuk
09-22-2005, 10:32 PM
Okay to summit it up(this whole thread)...
We wanted a bank and we wanted to get interest...
And now we have it we don't want it anymore? :whoa: :shock:

Lets drive Mickey crazy :D

Mickey we don't want the allieing stuff either :D
And can you take back the feature enabling us to transfer money?

I'm trying the best for newcomers, but sometimes things go toooo far here. It's like wanting the newcomers to get into the game without any work and be as strong as the ones who have worked for it.
Now THAT's unrealistic.

Roger Andrew
09-23-2005, 12:51 PM
Just reverse the level of interest as the amount gets higher (reverse of real world) daily interest at current level; over 1000 Geos reduce the rate and over 10000 Geos about 1% per annum!
Over 20000 Geos a banking charge bigger than the interest!

War_Peace
09-23-2005, 01:15 PM
Over 20000 Geos a banking charge bigger than the interest!

20,000!?? It's Lukepuuk's pocket money!...

Timmetie
09-23-2005, 01:56 PM
i actually like that idea, ofcourse one would always balance out at 20.000 and this would still cause players without cities to be annoying.

Lukepuuk
09-23-2005, 02:24 PM
Anyone can get 20.000 without much problems.
Just don't attack other cities for a week.
I wish 20.000 was my pocket money by the way :P
Lowering interest rate is the opposite of the real world isn't it? :shock:

Timmetie
09-24-2005, 09:55 AM
Maby you can only collect interest when you have cities?

can even make it so that 1 city gives you 1% up to 6 cities for 3.5% interest.

So someone who has lost all his cities, will have to start slowly again, ofcourse its faster than a beginner, but it would be more fair.

rasqual
09-24-2005, 03:05 PM
Only collect interest when you have cities?

That's an arbitrary construct.

Timmetie
09-24-2005, 03:10 PM
So? lets just say you've got a big player, with his interest he's only going to get bigger. Now if you were an alliance you wont attack him, cause he'll be back, but not if you take his cities.

In nerd speak:

In lord of the Rings, the good powers never could win, they just stalled and attacked until frodo got the ring into that mountain.
In the matrix they couldnt win, they were just stalling to do whatever it was they did.
This would be thesame, the small guys could launch one last assault, and take the interest rating out.
I think this is a good solution, and i think you will as well if you think about it.

Lukepuuk
09-24-2005, 04:22 PM
So? lets just say you've got a big player, with his interest he's only going to get bigger. Now if you were an alliance you wont attack him, cause he'll be back, but not if you take his cities.

In nerd speak:

In lord of the Rings, the good powers never could win, they just stalled and attacked until frodo got the ring into that mountain.
In the matrix they couldnt win, they were just stalling to do whatever it was they did.
This would be thesame, the small guys could launch one last assault, and take the interest rating out.
I think this is a good solution, and i think you will as well if you think about it.

No must...have...my...interest....my preciousss.
Unnice hobbit Timmitie wants to take my precious interest away, musn't do that we say, musn't.

rasqual
09-24-2005, 05:12 PM
So? lets just say you've got a big player, with his interest he's only going to get bigger.So? Come up with something that's a dynamic part of the economy, that increases in corrective power the richer someone gets. Arbitrary constructs don't add complexity or interest to the game. Some are necessary, but anytime someone rushes to suggest one before considering alternatives, I think they should be dragged across the surface of a KMZ file full of Siberian placemarks. ;-)

Timmetie
09-24-2005, 07:33 PM
Rasqual i'm with you, but with the current options, this is a quick fix, and mickey can then decide when the game has advanced enough to not need arbitrary restrictions.

It is foolish to keep shouting things down cause of something that isnt here yet, and might yet take a long while to get implemented, when people (with people i apperently mean me) want a solution.

Lukepuuk
09-24-2005, 07:46 PM
I understand but you gotta keep realistic though.
You want to make it very easy on the new guys and hard on the ones further in it. This will mean you wouldn't have that much to fight for.
It's also the opposite of the real world.
If anything has to change...i guess the minimum of 2 or 3 cities to get taxes is a better idea then a maximum on the bank.
Still it's weird...more like science fiction.

TheMightySquigglies
09-24-2005, 07:52 PM
perhaps newbies should start off with a decent amount of geos, say 250 or something like that just so they can amass some troops and see what the game is all about, they would also be able to plant mines to start the ball rolling. Means they can start to play catch up without having to build their initial money with the most boring part of the whole game - jewel collecting.

Mickey would have to really lock down Ip's then though to stop people just setting up loads of new accounts.

Lukepuuk
09-24-2005, 07:54 PM
perhaps newbies should start off with a decent amount of geos, say 250 or something like that just so they can amass some troops and see what the game is all about, they would also be able to plant mines to start the ball rolling. Means they can start to play catch up without having to build their initial money with the most boring part of the whole game - jewel collecting.

Mickey would have to really lock down Ip's then though to stop people just setting up loads of new accounts.

Yeah we really need a system for double IP's. This is too easy.

Timmetie
09-24-2005, 07:54 PM
well that he cant, it would be too easy to hack

And my solution would help noobs, by keeping the bigguns smaller, and noobs shouldnt be getting mad interest anyways, they should be trying to get cities.

Lukepuuk
09-24-2005, 07:59 PM
So everyone agrees???
You need at least 2 cities to receive interest???
And then the rest of the system can stay as it is?

TheMightySquigglies
09-24-2005, 08:01 PM
Yeah we really need a system for double IP's. This is too easy.

I agree but you'd never stop people using proxies, its just too easy to fake an IP. Maybe you could register the MAC address of the network card on the Pc you play on and it can only be used once? The Jewel collecting kml could read the value and only work off a PC with that MAC address?

I know its complex but it would certainly be better than IP?

Lukepuuk
09-24-2005, 08:03 PM
I agree but you'd never stop people using proxies, its just too easy to fake an IP. Maybe you could register the MAC address of the network card on the Pc you play on and it can only be used once? The Jewel collecting kml could read the value and only work off a PC with that MAC address?

I know its complex but it would certainly be better than IP?

No there is another way.
I used to work for a company where i had to make some commercial and we did that on partyforums.
To do that we used proxies and programs like Steganos Anonym.
But they changed their software...after a while you couldn't enter it anymore.
It saw when you were using a proxie or fake IP adres.

TheMightySquigglies
09-24-2005, 08:04 PM
So everyone agrees???
You need at least 2 cities to receive interest???
And then the rest of the system can stay as it is?

No I dont agree, I've been working for Geo's and then got hammered and my major cities taken away, I now need that interest to help build my money back up.

What about all your geos (or a percentage) automatically being used to buy troops should you not have spent any in a defined time period?

This is hard to solve!

TheMightySquigglies
09-24-2005, 08:05 PM
No there is another way.
I used to work for a company where i had to make some commercial and we did that on partyforums.
To do that we used proxies and programs like Steganos Anonym.
But they changed their software...after a while you couldn't enter it anymore.
It saw when you were using a proxie or fake IP adres.


Thats cool, would be great if Mickey could stop people with proxies.

Lukepuuk
09-24-2005, 08:18 PM
No I dont agree, I've been working for Geo's and then got hammered and my major cities taken away, I now need that interest to help build my money back up.

What about all your geos (or a percentage) automatically being used to buy troops should you not have spent any in a defined time period?

This is hard to solve!

Hmmm that gives another problem.
Troops cost money...if you buy troops automatically you would have less many but more troop costs...
How about if a player has more then a 100.000 geo's he needs at least 2 cities to get interest?

Timmetie
09-24-2005, 08:26 PM
No I dont agree, I've been working for Geo's and then got hammered and my major cities taken away, I now need that interest to help build my money back up.

What about all your geos (or a percentage) automatically being used to buy troops should you not have spent any in a defined time period?

This is hard to solve!

But at this time, you are not playing the game, you are just waiting to strike.
Now be honest, the one you're going to attack has no way to stop you.

Timmetie
09-24-2005, 08:27 PM
Hmmm that gives another problem.
Troops cost money...if you buy troops automatically you would have less many but more troop costs...
How about if a player has more then a 100.000 geo's he needs at least 2 cities to get interest?

We could do this, but at a much lower limit, a 1000 or less.
If you cant take a city with a 1000 geo's something is terribly wrong.

Lukepuuk
09-24-2005, 08:37 PM
We could do this, but at a much lower limit, a 1000 or less.
If you cant take a city with a 1000 geo's something is terribly wrong.

Thats nonsense. 95% of the players are well above a 1000geo's and might not want any city at this time.
Remember that there are really players who might wanna leave their cities for a while. And keep in mind that when the game comes out of Beta there will be a lot more players.
You are looking at it now. Lots of cities and not a lot of players...
No in the future that will change. And then a player might want to keep on saving money at his homebase until he reaches the 10.000 and then strike.
You trying to take one of the good options of the game away and that is to secretly stay at your homebase and then strike when you're rich.
I say a minimum of 100.000, and if we do it 50/50 we'll get at about 50.000 minimum for that ;)

*edit* The lower you set the minimum, the more difficult you would make it for newbies and more easy for the big ones who have enough to keep a couple of cities.

Timmetie
09-24-2005, 09:01 PM
with 10.000 geo's i can take 10 cities.

people who leave on vacation could just buy armies, buckle down in 1 city and take reduced interest.

More cities will be added with more players.

Lukepuuk
09-24-2005, 09:08 PM
There is where you are wrong.
You might take 10 cities with 10.000 geo's....
But even now you will lose them and you will have nothing.
You want to implement a rule that makes people HAVE to give up their money.
You can't do that.
If you want to hold onto a city you need to put something like 15.000-25.000 troops in it. The more valuable cities require even more then that.
Your idea is way off. The big guys will just take 2 cities nobody wants and live off interest.
The small guy couldn't even stay at home and save a 10.000geo's and get interest...he'd have to go out and conquer cities and get kicked right back and have nothing.
An idea like that could ruin fun and free gameplay.
If one doesn't want to he shouldn't be punished for not having cities...his or her choice.

Timmetie
09-24-2005, 09:12 PM
[QUOTE=Lukepuuk]
Your idea is way off. The big guys will just take 2 cities nobody wants and live off interest.
QUOTE]

now they can with no cities, and with 10.000 geo's i can take 1 city and keep it.
I myself have some nutters who do nothing but launch attacks at me every day from their homebase. They can live of interest, and this is just wrong.

And i think you should have to abbility to annihalate someone, not just take away his/her cities for a moment.

Lukepuuk
09-24-2005, 09:15 PM
This whole idea is too unrealistic.
Wouldn't hold. For the time of being i'd go with an idea of being able to not have more then a 150.000-200.000 Geo's at the bank.
Easier to program, and it's sufficient. The idea of the cities is just plain stupid and gives the game less strategy.

Lukepuuk
09-24-2005, 09:18 PM
And i think you should have to abbility to annihalate someone, not just take away his/her cities for a moment.

More ideas like that? The thought was that no player could ever be totally out of the game. Has been said here time after time again.

I say, put a maximum on the bank where they can live off, and take away the maximum for paying players.

As to players striking at you every day from their homebase hahaha...DUHH
It's a wargame and that's what they are supposed to and that's what you did in the beginning...time after time you attacked Aravan in Chicago.

Nilla
09-24-2005, 09:34 PM
On that annihilating people thing.

Maybe if you kill all their armies or take all their cities, you get a message saying "You have annihilated XXXX"

?

Lukepuuk
09-24-2005, 09:48 PM
As long as they can get right back.
It would hurt the game to completely really annihilate them.
You'd lose a lot of users.

rasqual
09-25-2005, 01:30 AM
Rasqual i'm with you, but with the current options, this is a quick fix, and mickey can then decide when the game has advanced enough to not need arbitrary restrictions.

It is foolish to keep shouting things down cause of something that isnt here yet, and might yet take a long while to get implemented, when people (with people i apperently mean me) want a solution.

You're obviously young an inexperienced in the business world. ;-)

I don't mean that negatively, but what you're describing simply isn't how things work.

If the fix is that important, you see, that argues for less -- not more -- haste and carelessness. "Good enough for the urgent need" is the duct-tape wizard's cry.

The further you go from possible "should be the case" options (you never know until you try them), the more unlikely it is that you'll ever retreat from architectural commitments you make to accommodate the squeaky wheels.

My job, in part, is to see to it that the squeaky wheels are either (a) lubricated, or (b) rolled into a ditch somewhere so they can't squeak anymore.

;-)

Timmetie
09-25-2005, 08:38 AM
somewhere in there there's a good joke about your wheels not all turning the right way anymore, but ill leave it be.

and now, i shall retreat to my tactic used when things get in a deadlock..


Nu-uh!!!

/me crosses arms and holds breath.

TheMightySquigglies
09-25-2005, 09:53 AM
If anyone thinks you can take a city with 1000 geos and keep it then they are mistaken, I used that to take Manchester back and held it for about a day before getting smashed in by the Europen Union. You need much more money to take anything and hold it while we have such big players on the map.

Timmetie
09-25-2005, 12:41 PM
we was talking about 10.000

TheMightySquigglies
09-25-2005, 03:56 PM
We could do this, but at a much lower limit, a 1000 or less.
If you cant take a city with a 1000 geo's something is terribly wrong.

I was replying to this post.

I agree if you have over a certain amount of money you should no longer earn interest unless you are active in the game by taking cities, that means you can build up enough to take a city and keep it and its also an incentive to make sure you keep Jewel collecting to hold the city for a long time ensuring your money can continue to grow in your "away time"

I think 5000 would be a fair limit, thats plenty of troops and backup money for replenishing defences once you have taken a city.

Lukepuuk
09-25-2005, 04:23 PM
I read time after time again that it was the intention to make Jewel hunting only to start up. To work towards you never having to hunt jewels again.
This rule would just set things right back...all would depend on jewel hunting again.
The game would go backwards instead of forwards.
What will happen is that big guys will not allow the smaller ones to own more then one city, and thus making it impossible for them to get interest.
I understand the idea, but if you think about it, it's not bad for the big guys, but for the smaller ones.
Someone with 5000geo's is still a small player.