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Thread: Unknown Facility Iran

  1. #16
    Moderator Emeritus Appletom's Avatar
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    It's been nice knowing you.

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  2. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by simelco View Post
    OK guys , for the last time. If somebody makes an entry and the only answer a moderator can give is " I see only soil " , is low level and such remark raises my neckhairs. It's unpolite , it's pure arrogant , and captain H may expect a same kind of answer. If you , moderators, are too lazy or blind and unable to explore a site when it is brought under your attention , don't expect me to pinpoint all the details but look around yourself. This however , does not justify such an arrogant answer from him. I donot want anything to do with such guys on a forum , so again , pls erase my profile and entries.
    Lighten up and have a cold one dude....you are waaaay over reacting. Life is too short to be that mad over something so trivial.
    Matt Fox

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    ṨῤἵḋểṙẊƻƻ SpiderX22's Avatar
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    My 2 cents. The comment "I see only soil" is a legitimate comment. Like you said, you were asking a question, and he was giving his response. Thats how things work in this world..questions and answers. With all honesty, that was his opinion and a comment with no malice or arrogance in it.


    Anyhow, I'll be sad to see you go! (especially over something like this).
    ٩(̾●̮̮̃̾Ľ̃̾)۶

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiderX22 View Post
    My 2 cents. The comment "I see only soil" is a legitimate comment. Like you said, you were asking a question, and he was giving his response. Thats how things work in this world..questions and answers. With all honesty, that was his opinion and a comment with no malice or arrogance in it.


    Anyhow, I'll be sad to see you go! (especially over something like this).

    I echo that. Some people can't face up to views which remotely contradict their own, fondly-held position.

    On the matter of substance, I dare say we'll know whether it does represent any kind of secret facility as soon as America's 51st state, Israel, attacks.

  5. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jolanta Zofia Nowak View Post
    I echo that. Some people can't face up to views which remotely contradict their own, fondly-held position.

    On the matter of substance, I dare say we'll know whether it does represent any kind of secret facility as soon as America's 51st state, Israel, attacks.
    Uh....don't you live in the UK? Do me a favor. Pick up a history book. Turn to the chapter called World War II (it was this big war in the 1930-1940s where the US sent a lot of aid and shed a lot of blood to help the UK fight a fascist regime).

    Or.....what about the 1,000's of US military personnel that were stationed in the UK after WWII to help protect it from Communism.

    How many trillions of dollars has the US poured into the UK? If Israel is our 51st state, what does that make the UK?
    Matt Fox

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forkboy2 View Post
    Uh....don't you live in the UK? Do me a favor. Pick up a history book. Turn to the chapter called World War II (it was this big war in the 1930-1940s where the US sent a lot of aid and shed a lot of blood to help the UK fight a fascist regime).

    Or.....what about the 1,000's of US military personnel that were stationed in the UK after WWII to help protect it from Communism.

    How many trillions of dollars has the US poured into the UK? If Israel is our 51st state, what does that make the UK?

    Let me correct a few of your illusions.

    1. The americans entered WWII late, as exactly per WWI, and only when they were directly attacked by Japan. Up until that time, Britain had been holding out alone for 2 years against the Nazi war machine. Suddenly, after Pearl Harbour, we became overnight a close ally.

    2. The stationing of US personnel on UK soil 'to protect us from communism' was actually far more to do with the doctrine, still current these days, of 'fight your enemy far away rather than closer to home'. Don't try to make out that it was purely altruistic. It wasn't.

    3. How many trillions? None. The UK was pointedly left out of the Marshall Plan at the end of the War. The US government insisted on calling in all the UK's war debts and we lived an impoverished life on war rations, having stood up to Hitler's hordes while the americans danced the night away, until 1954. The reason? America wanted no resurgence of the British Empire to challenge it for global supremacy in the post war years.

    4. Britain owes the US nothing. It's about time we realised that we are always on the wrong end of this so-called 'special relationship' and that speaking a weird and corrupted version of the English language does not mean that a country is actually civilised. We should look to our neighbours in Europe who, despite speaking other languages, actually share far more with us culturally than the US does.

    5. Israel is indeed America's 51st state. It clicks its fingers and the Americans come running. Its illegal and disastrous occupation of arab lands has been a festering sore for 60 years and is the reason why people are perfectly willing to get on buses with explosives strapped to them or to fly airliners into skyscrapers.

    Learn your history before peddling opinion as fact.

  7. #22
    Super Moderator Captain Hornblower's Avatar
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    Before someone starts to reply on the last post, he/she should take a deep breath. If this thread is becoming too political or too insulting, I'll close it. So take a deep breath and stay cool...

    Software is like entropy. It is difficult to grasp, weighs nothing, and obeys the second law of thermodynamics; i.e., it always increases.
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  8. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jolanta Zofia Nowak View Post
    Let me correct a few of your illusions.

    1. The americans entered WWII late, as exactly per WWI, and only when they were directly attacked by Japan. Up until that time, Britain had been holding out alone for 2 years against the Nazi war machine. Suddenly, after Pearl Harbour, we became overnight a close ally.

    2. The stationing of US personnel on UK soil 'to protect us from communism' was actually far more to do with the doctrine, still current these days, of 'fight your enemy far away rather than closer to home'. Don't try to make out that it was purely altruistic. It wasn't.

    3. How many trillions? None. The UK was pointedly left out of the Marshall Plan at the end of the War. The US government insisted on calling in all the UK's war debts and we lived an impoverished life on war rations, having stood up to Hitler's hordes while the americans danced the night away, until 1954. The reason? America wanted no resurgence of the British Empire to challenge it for global supremacy in the post war years.

    4. Britain owes the US nothing. It's about time we realised that we are always on the wrong end of this so-called 'special relationship' and that speaking a weird and corrupted version of the English language does not mean that a country is actually civilised. We should look to our neighbours in Europe who, despite speaking other languages, actually share far more with us culturally than the US does.

    5. Israel is indeed America's 51st state. It clicks its fingers and the Americans come running. Its illegal and disastrous occupation of arab lands has been a festering sore for 60 years and is the reason why people are perfectly willing to get on buses with explosives strapped to them or to fly airliners into skyscrapers.

    Learn your history before peddling opinion as fact.
    #1 - The US entered war against Germany only because we were attacked by Japan? That makes no sense. Why didn't we just fight Japan and leave the UK to defend itself against Germany?

    #2 - I never said it was purely altruistic. The UK and the US were strong allies during the Cold War. We're usually on the same team. Of course any action we take against a country in Europe is going to be from far away. We're on the other side of the world after all.

    #3 - So the UK paid every last cent that the US spent defending it from Germany? I doubt it. What about the cost in American lives? What about the cost to station American military and equipment there during the cold war?

    #4 - Not really sure what you're point is. The US and UK have been close allies for a long time. We both believe freedom is something worth protecting and have acted together toward that goal many times. Of course there are also countries in Europe that hold this belief also.

    #5 - The US-Israel relationship is complicated and I'm not going to pretend to be an expert (and I doubt you are either). But the US and Israel don't always have the exact same objectives and I'd hardly say that all Israel has to do is make a request to the US and it will automatically be fulfilled.

    Bottom line....saying that Israel is our 51st state simply because we provide military aid to it is a ridiculous statement given our history with the UK. It appears to me that you have some political agenda that skews your view of world history.

    Oh.....and just so you know where I'm coming from....I lived in Saudi Arabia for several years (as part of US/British military aid program to Saudi Arabia in the early 1980s, ironically). So I do have some first hand knowledge of this topic. Personally I don't really care about Israel one way or the other. But the reason people are willing to strap bombs to themselves to kill innocent civilians is not because the US provides aid to Israel. That is just a convenient excuse to blame the US for all the problems in the middle east.

    Or....maybe you think that if the US stopped supporting Israel, all the problems in the middle east would go away, and all the middle eastern countries would immediately become best buddies and live happily ever after?

    Matt
    Last edited by Forkboy2; 07-28-2008 at 02:28 AM.
    Matt Fox

  9. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hornblower View Post
    Before someone starts to reply on the last post, he/she should take a deep breath. If this thread is becoming too political or too insulting, I'll close it. So take a deep breath and stay cool...
    Hopefully nothing wrong with having a civilized conversation about an important (and sometimes controversial) topic.
    Matt Fox

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forkboy2 View Post

    Or....maybe you think that if the US stopped supporting Israel, all the problems in the middle east would go away, and all the middle eastern countries would immediately become best buddies and live happily ever after?

    Matt
    Something close to it, yes.

    Only an American could happily view what the US has been doing for half a century in the Middle East with equanimity.

    It takes a a jaw-dropping loss of conscience to prattle on one moment about fighting a Nazi Germany founded on militaristic expansionism, lebensraum and ethnic purity... and then support a Zionist State which does exactly the same.

    Israel clicks its fingers, the Americans come running. End of story. Everyone knows it.

  11. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jolanta Zofia Nowak View Post
    Something close to it, yes.

    Only an American could happily view what the US has been doing for half a century in the Middle East with equanimity.

    It takes a a jaw-dropping loss of conscience to prattle on one moment about fighting a Nazi Germany founded on militaristic expansionism, lebensraum and ethnic purity... and then support a Zionist State which does exactly the same.

    Israel clicks its fingers, the Americans come running. End of story. Everyone knows it.
    Not sure if you're comparing the US or Israel to Nazi Germany. Either way it speaks volumes about your slanted view of world history and the current state of affairs. I also can't help but chuckle given that you are from the UK, once one of the greatest military empires in history, and no stranger to meddling in the affairs of the middle east (google "glass houses").

    If the US stopped supporting Israel, Saudi Arabia, etc. the entire region would end up a war over oil reserves and religious affiliations, all the while blaming the US for every death. You know it.

    I'm not saying the US policies haven't had an effect on the middle east. Of course they have. Whether, those effects are good or bad will depend on who you ask and how honest that person is in their answer. Either way, we/Israel are an easy scapegoat for Arab leaders to blame for all the problems in the region.

    Israel is our ally, and we support them when it makes sense. Just as we would do with the UK, Saudi Arabia, or any other country that we have strong relations with. The UK would do the same for it's allies. If the only point you are trying to make is that the US supports Israel, then duh, I agree. But the US and Israel hardly agree on every policy decision regarding the region.

    Matt
    Matt Fox

  12. #27
    Moderator Emeritus Appletom's Avatar
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    I'm enjoying this debate and want to thank both of you for keeping it civilized and civilised.

    I will take exception to Jolanta's combined statements:

    "Nazi Germany [was] founded on militaristic expansionism, lebensraum and ethnic purity"

    Absolutely true.

    "... and then support a Zionist State which does exactly the same."

    Really. With the exception of a few miles outside its own borders - while engaged in wars started by other countries - when has Israel ever been involved in militaristic expansionism? I've certainly never seen Israel attacking and conquering country after country.

    Lebensraum - I will gladly admit to having to look this word up and it can sort-of/kind-of be used to describe Israel's building of settlements. But that's quite the stretch, as the dictionary description states Lebensraum is "finding additional 'living space' by adding colonies" while Hitler defined Lebensraum as "exterminating the entire urban population by starvation, thus creating an agricultural surplus to feed Germany and allowing their replacement by a German upper class."

    And now the fun part - Ethnic Purity. Jolanta, since you made the comparison between the Nazi's and the State Of Israel, can you please tell us how many people the Israelis have sent to gas chambers because they were not of the correct race or religion?

    Last but not least, you sort-of agreed with Matt's flippant statement "if the US stopped supporting Israel, all the problems in the middle east would go away, and all the middle eastern countries would immediately become best buddies and live happily ever after."

    The whacko militant idiots in the middle east will only be happy when the state of Israel is completely and totally destroyed. The USA could stop any and all aid and support tomorrow and the people would blindly hate Israel just as much.

  13. #28
    Super Moderator Captain Hornblower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appletom View Post
    [...]keeping it civilized and civilised.
    Just for the non-native English speaker... is this the English and the American way of this term or are there different meanings? Then I should drop my dictionary

    Software is like entropy. It is difficult to grasp, weighs nothing, and obeys the second law of thermodynamics; i.e., it always increases.
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  14. #29
    Moderator Emeritus Appletom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hornblower View Post
    is this the English and the American way of this term or are there different meanings?
    You would not believe how many Americans would not understand that there is a difference between the "English way" and the "American way". English is American and American is English would probably be the predominant thought pattern amongst those living in The United States.

    But to answer your question Captain, it's just two spellings of the same word. Like "Color" and "Colour", like "Theater" and "Theatre".

  15. #30
    Super Moderator Captain Hornblower's Avatar
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    I see... Once I followed a funny discussion between a British and an US guy The running gag was about 'aluminium'

    Software is like entropy. It is difficult to grasp, weighs nothing, and obeys the second law of thermodynamics; i.e., it always increases.
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